Cheap sound sync technique?

[jumar]

I have a Nizo 801m, without the crystal sync conversion, and I don't want to do the conversion (too expensive for my needs right now).

I have an idea for quickly synching sound, and I'm wondering if anyone has tried it.

What if you slate at the start and end of a shot (recording sound on a minidisc), and then in digital editing later, adjust the length of the audio track to match the two claps?

Obviously this would only work if the camera were running at a constant speed between the two slates, and was relatively close to 24 fps, and the telecine was clean.

Has anyone tried this? Does it seem like a reasonable solution? I'm new to super 8 (I've done 16mm crystal sync work), and the non-conversion synch sound ideas I've read so far seem kind of daunting (perhaps more reliable than this one, but daunting).

I have had to do a lip sync with 16mm before (where slates were missing and the audio digitization had caused drifting), so that's always a backup, but it takes *a lot* of time.

John

[rollemfilm]

Keep your takes short. 20 sec. I have done loger wild sync takes but it's a crap shoot. Use good fresh batteries. If the camera is cold, this will effect the best chance for a constant speed. As I said, keep the shots short, but I have been able at times to shoot an entire 50ft cart in wild sunc. Most of the time I can get 45 sec, but it will often drift towards the end. If your camera is in good repair, this will be a plus. Cameras designed for in camera sound gives me the best results. But the Canon 814E has constantly givin me good results. The Canon 514XL-S is my perfered super8 "sync" camera because it is quieter than most other Canons. I hear Nizo made a good steady running camera, so you should be ok (as ok as you can get shooting wild).

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 20, 2003 02:46 PM: Message edited by: rollemfilm ]</font>

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jumar:
I
What if you slate at the start and end of a shot (recording sound on a minidisc), and then in digital editing later, adjust the length of the audio track to match the two claps?
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

People do it just like that all the time and it works just great.

[jumar]

Great. That's what I wanted to hear!

[regular8mm]

ftp://ftp.filmshooting.com/upload/video/mpg/S8xfers.mpg

Here is one I did that way. Roger transferred the film part. S8 film is sandwiched between Hi8 video.

[rollemfilm]

There are limits on how well this will work. Even though you slate head and tail the sound can still drift inbetween. If your camera does not run steady enough, you may notice this. Also, by using sound compression/expansion you begin to introduce artifacts in the audio mix. This can be very noticeable when you try to EQ the mix. To call this "cheap sync" is not accurate; wild sound is the common term. Editing very short lip sync takes and using inserts is a good way to use wild sound. The most common is the one camera interview. This is were the interview is filmed, then reaction shots are made of the interviewer. It looks hoky most of the time. But using hands, objects, shadows, closeups of eyes and a host of other camera moves, you can tell your story almost without the use of sync. "The French Connection" is a good example of limited dialog. So is any "good" silent film.

[macnessa]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here is one I did that way. Roger transferred the film part. S8 film is sandwiched between Hi8 video. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sync job is amazing. I had no idea you could do this without a crystal sync set up.

[Shutter]

Thats the way major hollywood films are made.
Thay have a 35mm silent film camera with a seprate sound crew that holds a boom mic. Then thay time the slate claps with the recorded sound.

[lightfeat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shutter:
Thats the way major hollywood films are made.
Thay have a 35mm silent film camera with a seprate sound crew that holds a boom mic. Then thay time the slate claps with the recorded sound.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, they are crystal sync cameras, so no, that's not the way they do it. They aren't synced by sound stretching techniques in NLE, as they don't need to do this at all. They are sound synced using the clapper or more commonly now, timecode systems, but then, everything runs in perfect sync without adjustments.

Lucas

[MovieStuff]

The truth is that, even with crystal synch, nothing is really in synch on NTSC when transferred on a Rank. The reason is that, while the audio plays along at 23.976pfs uninterrupted, the picture has "snags" in it every fourth frame where the fourth frame is effectively doubled. In actuality, they take a field from frames four and five to create a split field combination but the point is that the audio for frame frame four barrels ahead unimpeded and then the picture has to play catch up. Then, four frames later, the film hits a snag again and the catch up game is played again.

My point in all this is that "acceptable synch" is a relative term. Considering the the audio on a Rank transfer is off by an entire frame six times a second, wild synch or "stretch synch" as illustrated by the clip above, is certainly a valid way of producing audio. Considering that a 50 foot roll of super 8 is limited to only 2.5 minutes anyway, just how long a take would one probably have? Five seconds? 20 seconds? A minute? Any recorder that is going to vary enough to make the audio out of synch in the middle, even though the beginning and ends line up, is going to provide unacceptable wow characteristics, even for NON-synch recording. Therefore, any recorder capable of producing consistant audio with no audible wow should work fine for "stretch synch" as described above.

Roger